Opinions about using a Windows bootloader?

[leonardevens]

Many years ago, I administered a small network of machines which came with Windows NT installed. I repartitioned each one and installed RedHat Linux, but instead of using lilo as basic bootloader, , I used the NT boot loader. as primary. The method for doing so was ad hoc and required fiddling at a very low level. I found instructions about how to do it in Micahel Kofler's Linux book, but it was easy to go wrong, and numerous times I ended up having to reinstall NT and start from scratch.

Eventually I started using lilo, and later grub, putting it in the master boot record. The RedHat installer was set up to do that by default, and didn't require as much maintnenance after installation.

But I've run into problems with a dual boot Linux/Vista machine. I wasn't able to install Vista's service pack 2, and someone on the web suggested that having grub in the mBR was the problem. And in the process of trying to fix things, I had to reinstall Vista from scratch. (Fortunately, the installation left the partition table alone, and I was still able to get to Linux using grub CD I had providentially burned.) So I plan to use EasyABC to configure Vista's bootloader to boot Linux in addition to Vista. This would be the safest thing from the point of view of mainating Vista.

I assume the same would be true about Window 7.

Has anyone anything helpful to say about the matter? Are there any gotchas either about Vista or Windows 7 that I ought to worry about? It is rather tiresome having to reinstall one or the other OS each time I screw something up.

[stoat]

Originally Posted by leonardevens

So I plan to use EasyABC to configure Vista's bootloader to boot Linux in addition to Vista.

Hello leonardevens,

It's EasyBCD. And it's very popular.

Originally Posted by leonardevens

This would be the safest thing from the point of view of mainating Vista.

Many people feel that way. It's a legitimate opinion.

Originally Posted by leonardevens

I assume the same would be true about Window 7.

Yes. I don't use Vista or Windows 7, but I do know that they use the same boot loader arrangement. I've seen plenty of examples on the Internet of EasyBCD being used with Windows 7.

Originally Posted by leonardevens

Has anyone anything helpful to say about the matter? Are there any gotchas either about Vista or Windows 7 that I ought to worry about?

The are plenty of guides on using EasyBCD to configure Bootmgr to boot Linux. And they usually mention this, but when you install Fedora watch for and choose the boot loader option to install GRUB in the first sector of the Fedora boot partition. That is what Bootmgr actually launches since it cannot directly launch a Linux kernel. I mention this because sometimes when people intend to use another boot loader, they choose not to install Fedora's GRUB at all. When that other boot is a Windows boot loader, there will then be trouble. EasyBCD does have a GRUB boot loader of its own called NeoGRUB that can directly launch a Linux kernel, but IMO it's simpler and better to install Fedora's GRUB in the first sector of the Fedora boot partition and boot that with other boot loaders. It also does not require any maintenance when the Fedora kernel is updated.

[aesir]

Recently I've had a big headache trying to fix my little cousin's pc for a virus in xp.
After reinstalling windows I've decided to add a new partition to backup some thing; the new partition was at the end of the drive and partition order didn't change so I thought that the windows boot loader would have worked without problem: since that moment windows was no more able to boot.
The boot loader wasn't even running and after BIOS startup I only got a sad "no boot drive found".

No windows recover tool (install cd, fixboot, fixmbr and all the combinations that I found on the internet) was able to bring back the boot loader and I finally gave up and reinstalled everything from scratch after creating the partitions.

I don't know if newer windows versions have more resistant boot loaders, but after this story I've decided that they will stay away from my mbr.


About your problem with vista sp2 I have to say that it is almost surely unrelated to GRUB, since on my sister's pc the update completed with success and it didn't touch GRUB.


From my experiences GRUB is much stronger and - as long as your partitions don't get lost - is simple to reinstall after reinstalling any OS.

[dd_wizard]

When you install GRUB in the first sector of the Fedora partition, the install program will still deactivate the Windows primary partition. This may have contributed to aesir's problem. I've always successfully recovered the Vista partition by running Startup Repair from the Vista install DVD. It's a pita, but all that needs to be done is activating the Vista partition again.

I wish Fedora left the active windows partition alone when GRUB is installed in the Fedora partition, but there's a thread that explains why that's not done now, iirc.

dd

[aesir]

Originally Posted by dd_wizard

When you install GRUB in the first sector of the Fedora partition, the install program will still deactivate the Windows primary partition. This may have contributed to aesir's problem. I've always successfully recovered the Vista partition by running Startup Repair from the Vista install DVD. It's a pita, but all that needs to be done is activating the Vista partition again.

I wish Fedora left the active windows partition alone when GRUB is installed in the Fedora partition, but there's a thread that explains why that's not done now, iirc.

dd

I've tried what you say, both via gparted and in the GRUB shell with a live CD, but this didn't help.
BTW on that pc there was only windows XP, no Fedora or GRUB.

I've never had problem with GRUB installation preventing windows boot, could you please explain me better what you meant with you last sentence?

[dd_wizard]

When grub is installed in the first sector of the Fedora partition, the original Windows system partition would normally be able to boot to the Windows bootloader. However, the Fedora installer actually deactivates the active Windows partition, so it must be reactivated with Startup Repair. Since I use EASYBcd and the Vista bootloader, it got annoying to reactivate my Vista partition every time I installed a new snapshot of F12.

It seems to me that any time grub is installed in the Fedora partition, the active Windows system partition should be left active. Otherwise, the machine is unbootable without doing a startup repair.

So, I wish the Fedora installer didn't deactivate the Windows system partition.

dd

[stoat]

Originally Posted by dd_wizard

I wish Fedora left the active windows partition alone when GRUB is installed in the Fedora partition...

Hello dd_wizard,

I forgot that. Thanks for mentioning it. To me, since I use NTLoader as my boot loader, it's not such as good idea either. In fact, it's so wrong to me that I keep forgetting it. It a new thing with Fedora 11. I have always used NTLoader and never had to change the active partition back to Windows before.

Originally Posted by dd_wizard

...but there's a thread that explains why that's not done now, iirc.

This other thread here about the same thing has JEO's explanation for it...

http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=231421

Anyway, an easy way to fix it is with the Fedora LiveCD and its fdisk, a LiveCD partition manager such as the GParted LiveCD, or boot the Fedora system with a Super Grub Disk and use the Fedora system's fdisk.

[leonardevens]

Originally Posted by dd_wizard

When you install GRUB in the first sector of the Fedora partition, the install program will still deactivate the Windows primary partition. This may have contributed to aesir's problem. I've always successfully recovered the Vista partition by running Startup Repair from the Vista install DVD. It's a pita, but all that needs to be done is activating the Vista partition again.

I wish Fedora left the active windows partition alone when GRUB is installed in the Fedora partition, but there's a thread that explains why that's not done now, iirc.

dd

I tried to use Vista repair to do that, but it made matters worse. My computer did not come witha Vistal installation DVD. All I got was the capability to create DVDs to reinstall Vista to factory defaults. (Fortunately that doesn't change the Partition table in the MBR, so I was still able to boot Fedora from a grub CD.I had had the foresight to create.)

I did find on the web a Vista DVD with the installation section removed---so it didn't violate Microsoft's Rules---and I used that to repair Vista. When it came up, it didn't show me an OS to repair, and I couldn't figure out how to tell it where to look. So I went to the command line, and used instructions I found on the web to restore the MBR. That claimed to succeed, but when I tried to boot, I got a "No Operating System". message. I probably could have fixed that, but it seemed easier to restore Vista to factory defaults and start from scratch. That is where I am now. I've installed grub in the boot sector of the patition containing /boot, and I am getting ready to use EasyABC at the Vista level to tell its bootloaer to boot Linux (through grub, of course).

I have no idea where Vista Repair wrote MBR information, but, when I rebooted Linux my password had been lost. Fortunately I had created another user, so I was able to login to fix that. without having to take more extreme measures. I can't conceive of how writing MBR information could manage to mess up /etc/shadow, so I presume it was just a coincidence. Most likely it was something else, such as a random gamma ray, that messed up my password.

[David Batson]

Interesting. It's been some months, but I installed F11 and GRUB on a hard drive with Windows 7 RC1 on it and do not recall any problems booting either one (unless my memory is faulty). I know I can boot both.

[leonardevens]

Originally Posted by David Batson

Interesting. It's been some months, but I installed F11 and GRUB on a hard drive with Windows 7 RC1 on it and do not recall any problems booting either one (unless my memory is faulty). I know I can boot both.

I assume you put grub in the MBR and you are booting both Windows 7 and F11 from grub. It is nice to know that also works for grub

That is the way I set up my computer with Vista and F11. I had no problems until I tried to install Service Pack 2. It wouldn't install. Google found me someone who claimed that having grub in the MBR was the source of the problem, It seems that he was right because I just managed to install Service Pack 2 with a virgin Vista installation. (I am currently booting Linux from a grub CD.) After I use EasyABC to put grub/F11 in Vista's bootloader, we will see whether or not such problems disappear.

By the way, this time I made a copy with dd in F11 of the undisturbed MBR, and copied it to a flash drive. Copying it back with dd seems the easiest method by far of resetting the MBR should trouble arise. I could if necessary even use Fedora Live to copy it back off the flash drive.

[David Batson]

Originally Posted by leonardevens

That is the way I set up my computer with Vista and F11. I had no problems until I tried to install Service Pack 2. It wouldn't install. Google found me someone who claimed that having grub in the MBR was the source of the problem, It seems that he was right because I just managed to install Service Pack 2 with a virgin Vista installation. (I am currently booting Linux from a grub CD.) After I use EasyABC to put grub/F11 in Vista's bootloader, we will see whether or not such problems disappear.

By the way, this time I made a copy with dd in F11 of the undisturbed MBR, and copied it to a flash drive. Copying it back with dd seems the easiest method by far of resetting the MBR should trouble arise. I could if necessary even use Fedora Live to copy it back off the flash drive.

That's some good info. I might need it one of these days.

[aesir]

Originally Posted by leonardevens

I assume you put grub in the MBR and you are booting both Windows 7 and F11 from grub. It is nice to know that also works for grub

That is the way I set up my computer with Vista and F11. I had no problems until I tried to install Service Pack 2. It wouldn't install. Google found me someone who claimed that having grub in the MBR was the source of the problem, It seems that he was right because I just managed to install Service Pack 2 with a virgin Vista installation. (I am currently booting Linux from a grub CD.) After I use EasyABC to put grub/F11 in Vista's bootloader, we will see whether or not such problems disappear.

By the way, this time I made a copy with dd in F11 of the undisturbed MBR, and copied it to a flash drive. Copying it back with dd seems the easiest method by far of resetting the MBR should trouble arise. I could if necessary even use Fedora Live to copy it back off the flash drive.

The problem is not in GRUB per se, but in the fact that on linux install the windows partition is marked not active.
When vista tries to update to sp2 it need to write a new bootmgr, but it searches it in the active partition and then the whole process fails.
Some people has managed to resolve the issue just making active the partition and retrying to update.

The lesson to learn from this is:
whatever boot loader you happen to use, just remember to set active the f** windows partition.

[dd_wizard]

Aesir wrote:

The lesson to learn from this is:
whatever boot loader you happen to use, just remember to set active the f** windows partition.

Exactly! On my Toshiba laptop, the factory restore DVD doesn't have a Startup Reapair option either. However, as long as you have a valid Vista liscence there shouldn't be any legal issues with using a standard Window's install disk for Startup Repair. From what I've read, it's legal to install MS Vista of the same vintage, e.g. MS Home Premium replaces OEM Home Premium, and reactivate the MS install with the OEM activation. (And you can purchase the 64 bit version for media costs from MS.) This turns out to be the only way to install 64 bit windows on a number of older machines. The OEM doesn't provide a 64 bit upgrade path.

Back to Startup Repair. When you boot the install disk, you won't see a system partition since Fedora deactivated it. Just click buttons until you get around install to repair and choose Startup Repair. Somewhere in there, you'll get the message about no active system partition and voila! When you reboot, the original one is reactivated. As long as you stuck grub in the Fedora partition, the MS MBR and boot loader should be intact. If not, do another Startup Repair and reinstall them.

dd_wizard

[David Batson]

I have a hard disk with Windows 7 RC1 and Fedora 11 on it. I installed Windows 7 first, the Fedora, putting GRUB on the MBR. No problem.

I just received the Window 7 Professional Upgrade box in the mail. I decided I wanted to remove F11 for the time being (until F12 comes out). I use gparted to delete all of the F11 partitions, leaving the Windows 7 RC1 partitions intact. When I tried booting, it booted into grub with errors (naturally).

To restore the Windows original bootloader, I tried to let the Windows 7 RC1 DVD to do a startup recovery. This took quite a while and did not fix anything. What worked was the following (found via Google).

Boot up the Window DVD and choose Repair, then the command prompt. From the command prompt, issue the following 2 commands, then reboot.

bootrec /fixmbr
bootrec /FixBoot

[flyingsheep2009]

I tried both but I like to go with lilo because it gives me more options than windows bootloader.